Today, at 2PM, my youngest son had to come before the judge on account of the assault and battery charge against him. As you may recall, back in December, my 10 year old son (then only 9) was accused of assault and battery against his mother. The local police were called and my son was officially charged. I was not originally given the details as to what allegedly happened and only found out about the charge when a policemen came to my door to issue me a summons to appear in court. According to Virginia law, both parents need to be served when the accusation involves a child.
The judge listened to the evidence as presented by the detective that offically charged my son, as well as the testimony of my wife and the man with whom my son is currently living (and has been living with for the last three months or so). According to the testimony given, my wife was trying to get my son to go to school that day back in December. My son insisted that he was not feeling well and did not believe he should go to school. However, his mother insisted that he go. My son then became angry and began to push his mother and attempt to striker her. When this continued the police were eventually contacted and brought into the situation. According to the detective that came to the house that day, my wife told her that, in addition to the pushing and strking, she also has had to keep the knives away from my son because she was afraid of what he might do.
Most of the rest of the testimony presented was concerning the positive changes that have been taking place in my son's life since that incident in December. This included that fact that he is virtually a straight A student that typically turns his work in on time or, in many cases, ahead of time, that he does not disrupt the house in which he lives, but is obedient to the rules of that house and that he has progressed a lot over the last several months. As a result of this the judge finally ruled to keep this situation under advisement. If my son keeps his nose clean for the next 12 months, then the charge will be completely dropped. However, if he gets himself in trouble, he could face punishment for the assault and battery charge and gain a criminal record.
With that, the judge released my son into the custody of the man with which he is staying. However, there were a few things that I learned during this trial. Most of this I had heard sort of as a whisper or had speculated about, but now I heard it as sworn testimony in court.
For example, despite the assault and battery charge, no one removed my son from the house. According to the testimony that was given, my wife was struggling with my son's acting out and also the owner of the house where they are staying was not pleased with his behavior. Because of this, my wife decided, of her own free will, to find a place for my son to live. According to the man that testified (the man with whom he is currently living), if he didn't take him, he did not know where my son was going to be staying.
The judge asked the man if he knew when my son was going to move back in with his mother and siblings. The man answered by saying that it was open-ended ... no date had been set. Later, when my wife was on the stand, the judge asked the same question. He wanted to know if my wife had a plan for moving the child back into the home with the rest of the family. Her words were that it was open-ended. My son has lived outside of the home away from his mother, brother and sisters for the last three months or more and my wife does not yet have a plan to reintegrate him back into the family! Why not?
To be fair, according to my son (when I see him during visitation days), he does get to see his brother and sisters during the week. I don't know how frequently, but he does get to see them. I am glad for this as I know that both my sons had been very close to one another.
I have no reason to doubt that my son pushed and attempted to strike his mother. In fact, he told me the same thing when I talked to him about it in the presence of a supervisor during one of our visits. I told my son that striking someone because you cannot get what you want is certainly not the way to behave and that he needed to honor his mother. I hope my son has learned from this situation and that it will give him reason to pause and think about his actions before possibly doing something that he may later regret.
But I am still concerned about my son. Why aren't there plans to bring him home to be with the rest of the family? Why should the responsibility of making sure that he is fed, that he goes to bed, that he goes to school and that he does his homework, be given to someone else? Why should this child not have full access to his brother, sisters and his own mother? I realize that I am not there and I realize that this is a tough situation for my wife, being the only parent in the house, but however tough the situation is, a child's place is with his family when at all possible. If there was not this protective order placed against me by my wife, I certainly would be fighting to have my son living with me.
In any case, I am glad that he came through this situation with flying colors. He was a little man today, sitting straight in his chair, looking directly at the judge when spoken to and answering his questions when asked. What he did was wrong, but he seems to have come through it alright thus far.
77 comments:
Your little guy sounds like a saint compared to some of my friends kids. Your wife would be cowering in the corner. I've worked with kids and both of my parents retired from the education system. His actions are not acceptable, but perfectly understandable. It's sad that your wife, instead of loving him more fiercely, has chosen this path .
Dan,
I don’t understand your sense of bondage when you believed in God. I don’t know what type of church/churches you attended but they seem to be very legalistic. As if you are still under OT law plus man’s law. As I say I don’t know anything about them. For myself I have accepted Jesus as my Lord & Savior & truly believe in God. I feel very free. I have the freedom to read & think whatever I want. I have friends who aren’t Christians yet we are still good friends. I am having a hard time understanding where all this “freedom” you keep talking about comes from. There is complete freedom in Jesus. Maybe you can explain why you were in so much bondage & what lead you to decide there is no God. I have read all your posts & there still doesn’t seem to be a definitive answer in them.
I can't speak for Dan, but I too feel free after leaving the church. Free from living my life to make my imaginary friend happy. Free from guilt when I didn't measure up and -gasp- sinned. Think of all the time and money wasted when you dedicate your life to a bronze age myth. It's pretty sad. I'm now god-free and never been happier. The ball and chain is gone. I'm sure your happy too. Good for you. If you need delusional beliefs to make you happy then by all means, carry on. I don't.
Anyone who sincerely calls upon Jesus Christ to save them from their sins will be born again and sealed by the Spirit of God forever. At that moment Jesus will come to live inside of you. Only then can one know what it is like to be free from the bondage of sin, hell and death. If you say that you were saved, but you never knew what it was like to have that freedom, then you could not have been born again or have known the saving power of the One and Only True and Living God of Israel.
Dan,
I too have read every word of your blog. I would love to know what lead you, after years of believing, to determining that the Bible is false and that there is no God. Was is just a feeling or do you feel you are able to PROVE your claims? Thank you.
I am free from bondage of sin,hell, and death because I know sin and hell are man made concepts. Death doesn't scare me. If I was still a believer, then I would still care about such things.
Why do you believe these things? On what do you base your beliefs?
No one can prove there is no god just like no one can prove there are no unicorns. If I saw any compelling reason to believe in god, I would.
KP
The person above who said "Anyone who sincerely calls upon Jesus Christ to save them from their sins will be born again and sealed by the Spirit of God forever" needs to read Ephesians 4:30 more clearly. It is an admonition. It says to not GRIEVE the Spirit of God whereby we are sealed until the day of redemption. The point is that you don't want to grieve the seal. He's not saying "Don't upset the Holy Spirit because you are stuck with forever so you don't want to upset him." That's so goofy. Please read.
I think YOU need to read it in context. Paul is talking to believers about the Christian walk, not about losing salvation.
Ephesians 4
17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
20You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
"Why do you believe these things? On what do you base your beliefs?"
I base my beliefs on the Word of God and the fact that the Holy Spirit has proven it to me to be true. Can I prove it to you? No. That is why it is called faith and without faith it is impossible to please God. So if you do not believe, then you never really had the faith you thought you had. Sorry if the truth hurts.
Read Hebrews chapter 3 on what the Holy Ghost said about those that GRIEVED HIM and afterward believe not. He swore they would not enter into His rest. Please go and read this. Now, Eph. 4:30 is of course speaking to believers (the CHURCH of Ephesus) and is a warning to NOT GRIEVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH IS THE SEAL. You have twisted this to be a cornball admonition. Here's your twist: "Don't grieve the Spirit of God, because you are sealed by Him forever to you don't want to upset Him since you are once saved always saved." While you are in Heb. 3, try Ezekiel 3 which says that if a RIGHTEOUS MAN TURNS FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND BEGINS TO COMMIT ALL THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE WICKED, HE WILL DIE IN HIS INIQUITY AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WILL NOT BE REMEMBERED ANY MORE. You have fallen for the Ye shall surely die doctrine of the Devil, and so has Dan. Dan was saved, and is now reprobate and lost. Go online and listen to his testimony. Your doctrine needs adjusting, not the Bible.
There seems to be basically 2 points of view among the posters.
View #1
Jesus is who He says He is. There is a God. If you have accepted Jesus into your life than when you die you will go to heaven rather than hell.
View #2
There is not god. When you die you cease to exist. There is nothing else after death.
Which person do you truly think had the happier life?
Person #1 who lived their life believing that God loved & cared for them and at the moment of death entered heaven.
Or
Person #2 who lived their life believing that all there was to life was what happened to you here. They would be striving to have the best possible life they could & when they died that was it.
If person #1 is wrong what have they lost - Nothing
If person #2 is wrong what have they lost - Everything.
Just something to think about.
If person #1 is wrong what have they lost - NothingActually, this is incorrect. If person #1 is wrong, then they lost this life altogether because they spent it serving a god that does not exist.
If person #2 is wrong they are the ones who have more to lose than anyone.
I don't know many Christian or others who put much stock into Pascal's Wager.
Did Person #1 really lose this life?
If Person #1 lived a life of contentment serving God what did they lose?
Who's to say they would have been happier in this life if they had lived Person #2's life.
Person #1's life seems way less stressful.
Anonymous has a point that Person #2 has a whole lot more to lose if they are wrong.
There is a 3rd Person. A person who was Person #1 and then became Person #2 (like Dan). This person (#3) is called reprobate, a blasphemer of the Holy Ghost, who has done despite unto the Spirit of Grace, has sinned a sin unto death, has fallen from grace, who is twice-dead, plucked up by the roots, who was entangled again and overcome, who it is impossible to renew again unto repentance, whose latter end is worse than the beginning.
The bottom line is that if the bible is true (and I know it is), then there are two kinds of people:
1.saved
2.unsaved
Saved go to heaven. Unsaved go to hell. Which would you rather be?
"I don't know many Christian or others who put much stock into Pascal's Wager."
Christians put all their stock in The "Paschal" Lamb. :)
"The bottom line is that if the bible is true (and I know it is),"
The Bible may very well be true, but it how do you know with 100% certainty that it is true?
I don't believe Dan is doomed. Certainly, if he wishes, he could ask for forgiveness and like the prodigal son he would be welcomed back into the fold by his Heavenly Father. This is my prayer! Above all, God loves Dan whether Dan believes in Him or not. His love does not waiver.
"I base my beliefs on the Word of God and the fact that the Holy Spirit has proven it to me to be true."
How has the Holy Spirit proven it to you to be true?
KP
"Saved go to heaven. Unsaved go to hell. Which would you rather be?"
spending eternity in heaven with people like the ones who spread the christian love here in the comments? i think i will pass. :)
"There seems to be basically 2 points of view among the posters."
there are thousands of points of view in the world. what if your belief is wrong but any other of the world religions is the truth? :)
The point I was trying to make is there are 2 points of view.
It would seem to me that Person #2 has the most to lose.
It is something for both sides to think about.
Mike if you belive the Bible is true than what do you believe?? I'm confused by your posts. Please explaine what you believe.
I don't believe the Bible is true, where did I say that? I think it's possible that parts of it are true, and there is some wisdom in it. I quoted one of our 6,457 Anonymouses saying that and then allowed for the possibility by saying "It may be true", but I never said I believed it was true. I was just asking how he or she knew it was 100% true?
I really didn't want to pile in on this (since the entire thread has gone so off topic that it might as well belong to another blog entirely), but since Thinker appears not to have done any thinking (or even basic background reading) here's why Pascal's Wager doesn't work:
There are not "two points of view". There are many, many viewpoints - as many as there are religions in the world. Person 1 may spend their entire life serving God only to die and find themselves in the Islamic Hell, because it turns out the Muslims were right all along. Or they may reincarnate into the body of a slug, because they should have been paying attention to the Hindus. Or they may find that they've been worshipping the right god, but in the wrong way - it seems the Pope was the man to listen to after all. The dichotomy in Pascal's wager is a false one - it isn't between believer and unbeliever, but between you and everyone who doesn't believe exactly the same thing as you do.
Furthermore, since a person who chose to follow a religion based on your argument would effectively be hedging their bets for the purposes of self-preservation, how likely do you think it is that your God would be willing to accept their insincere prayers for mercy? If I were Him, I'd slap you straight down to Hell for being a brown-nosing smartass. The god posited by Pascal's Wager is a poorly developed excuse for a theology, and anyone who thinks it's a compelling argument in this day and age needs to grow up, take their head out from under the covers and read some proper philosophy, before their brains atrophy altogether from lack of use.
Now, to what I actually wanted to say. Dan, it sounds as though you should be very proud of your son - he seems to have recognised the wrongness of his actions and if, as you suggest, this was an uncharacteristic outburst, he should be able to move on and put the whole ugly incident behind him. I'm really sorry to hear about yet another crisis inflicted upon your family, and I offer my best wishes to you and all involved. I hope it is all resoved soon, and amicably.
Thank you, yunshui, for your kind words.
Frankly, I was wondering how long it would take before this would swing back on topic (if at all). I am amazed at the single-mindedness of some individuals. The article was about my son and his trial, not about Pascal's wager or the variety of biblical topics and interpretations about soteriology.
I agree that if Dan truly repents and asks Jesus to forgive him then He will. How do I know this? I know Jesus. I know His Word is true. How can I prove it? I can't. You have to ask Him yourself. I use to ask the same question. How can I know Jesus and the bible are true? A friend of mine who is a Christian kept telling me to ask God. I did not believe God could answer me, but one day I asked Him and He did. I guess it is kind of like the blind man who Jesus healed. He was physically blind, but I was spiritually blind. Like the blind man I can say, I was blind but now I see!
I ask God nearly every day, not for some major miracle, not for wealth or any kind of prosperity, but just to let me know he's there. I'm still waiting. I don't know how I believed for twenty years and do not now, but if he is real I would hope he would let me know.
For the last six months or so as a Christian I groveled at the foot of the cross daily, repenting for everything, including my doubt, begging him to let himself be known to me. I prayed a lot and buried myself in scripture. Finally, after getting no confirmation I gave up.
I don't know why God would reveal Himself to me and not to you. Keep asking Him. Don't ever give up. I searched for many years. He says you will find Him when you search for Him with all your heart. Keep searching and keep asking Him.
Most of my friends and family are Christians or theists of some sort, so my life sure would be less complicated if I could think like them again.
Mike I would like to know what God would have to do in order to prove Himself to you?? Faith has to come into play. I know you have fervently sought and I pray you will rest one day in the assurance that God is who He says He is.
I don't know what God would have to do. I haven't made any demands of him. I would assume he would know what I would need and I don't mean that in an arrogant way at all.
Mike, God knows your heart. Keep seeking Him.
Will do. It's kind of like the old McDonald's slogan that went something like "A million customers can't be wrong." Because so many that I love and respect see God, I still feel there may be some validity to it all even if I don't see it.
Mike, I have been praying for you and Dan and will continue to do so. I pray that you will both continue to seek the LORD with all your hearts. I know that He will reveal Himself to you if you do. Take care and God bless.
Thank you.
Mike I pray you feel encouraged by those of us who sincerely care about your struggles with the existence of God. Are you still periodically going to church anywhere? Keep seeking. I think most who have chimed in here feel the same toward Dan. Not everyone knows how to speak in love. Sometimes in desperation, well meaning people can sound judgemental even hostile.
It's kind of like the old McDonald's slogan that went something like "A million customers can't be wrong." Because so many that I love and respect see God, I still feel there may be some validity to it all even if I don't see it.
Hi Mike. Using that logic, then the Muslim faith would have some validity to it since it is the single largest religion in the world. In the past, the concept of the earth being at the center of the universe would have had validity as the majority of people held to that belief, the earth being flat would have had validity, etc.
Truth is not determined my majority vote, but I would guess that you know that already.
Oh, I know, I simply mean there may be something behind the whole God thing, not exclusive to Christianity. I'm not leaning towards believing in it all, just not ignoring the possibility.
My heart goes out to your children, who are suffering for the sins of their father. :(
Still wishing you and your loved ones the best, Dan. I truly hope that all of you can find peace once this ordeal is through.
Dan....if you do not go to jail, what are your plans for your 4 children?? I agree with the "anonymous blogger" that this situation is heartbreaking for your children. They have had the very foundation on which they stood, ripped out from underneath them.
People, please read carefully 1 John 5 and see that when a brother sins a sin unto death, you are no longer to pray for him (since it is impossible to renew him again unto repentance - See Heb. 6 and Heb. 10 and 2 Pet. 2:19,20; the latter end is worse for them than the beginning). Dan would have been better off not being born. You are to pray all prayers in the Spirit (Jude and Eph. 6). Did God the Holy Ghost lead you to pray for Dan contrary to His clear Bible teaching? No. This is not unloving or hostile, but simply THE BIBLE. You are giving false hope to reprobates (rejects) and encouraging more reprobates. Once they have smitten the Rock twice, they will not enter into the Promised Land. The Holy Ghost, being grieved, SWORE that those who believed not (after being saved - see Jude) would NOT enter into His rest (Heb. 3). Pray til you are blue in the face. Dan is a GONER based upon God's word. And he won't care. He'll be an atheist for life. Do pray that God will interfere with his newfound ministry of infidel-converting. Pray for his family too. Read 1 John 5 which commands you NOT TO PRAY FOR THE LIKES OF DAN.
Using that logic, then the Muslim faith would have some validity to it since it is the single largest religion in the world.Dan, just curious, where are you getting your numbers from? By most estimates, Christanity is the world's most popular religion, with Islam running second. See http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
"This is not unloving or hostile, but simply THE BIBLE."
Through your eyes, yep, it's the Bible, but there are countless others who use the same book and disagree.
Dan, just curious, where are you getting your numbers from? By most estimates, Christanity is the world's most popular religion, with Islam running second.
I apologize. You are correct. My statement should have read that the Muslim faith is larger than Catholicism. As such, the Muslim faith is the single largest religious denomination in the world.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article3653800.ece
I beg to differ with the blogger who has conveyed only doom and gloom to Dan. I believe the Bible teaches once you are saved you are ALWAYS saved. I do not believe the Bible teaches that you can loose your salvation. As for the "sin" Dan has commited - do you think Jesus died for ALL the sins of the world, EXCEPT ONE?? No, He died for all the sins of the world. If Dan was never saved, he could get saved - Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (no exceptions). If he was saved, he can ask for forgiveness and under the blood of Jesus (the blood He shed on the cross), he can be forgiven. He died for EVERY sin. Dan has not lost his salvation if he was truly ever saved. I can denounce my blood parents all I want but the fact will always remain that they are my parents. The same applies to people who ask Jesus into their hearts - once saved always saved. Jesus will forever be their heavenly Father. The real question is whether or not Dan was ever really saved. Did he ask Jesus into his heart and establish a personal relationship with Him. Only Dan knows.
I apologize. You are correct. My statement should have read that the Muslim faith is larger than Catholicism. As such, the Muslim faith is the single largest religious denomination in the world.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article3653800.eceAh, okay. Seems a bit unfair though to be comparing a single denomination of one religion against a whole other religion. It would make more sense to me to be comparing Catholicism against Sunni Islam. According to Wikipedia, about 85% of Muslims are Sunni, which going by the numbers in that article is still slightly smaller than Catholicism. It's pretty close, though, and at this point I'm just nitpicking anyway.
THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE IN THE BIBLE THAT SAYS 'ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.' Jude does say "The Lord, having saved His people out of the land of Egypt afterward destroyed them that believed not." Gal. 5 says "fallen from grace." 2 Tim. 2:12 says, "If we deny Him, HE WILL DENY US..." 2 Pet. 2:19,20 says after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, they are entangled again and overcome, the LATTER END IS WORSE THAN THE BEGINNING. Heb. 6 says IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again unto repentance. Ezek 3 says if a righteous man turns from his righteousness he'll die IN HIS INIQUITY and his righteousness will NOT BE REMEMBERED. Go read these verse. Be not afraid to prove your "Ye shall NOT surely die" doctrine of the Devil. There is a sin that Jesus did not pay for: It's called the BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY GHOST. Jesus said this person will NEVER HAVE FORGIVENESS. Heb. 10:26-31 calls this 'doing despite unto the Spirit of Grace' and Eph. 4:30 and Heb. 3 calls this GRIEVING THE SPIRIT OF GOD. As far as saying you are your parent's child and therefore always their child, this doesn't hold up. Read John 8:44. THE DEVIL WAS YOUR FATHER. You were a child of the devil before salvation. Are YOU STILL? Once a child, always a child is false. 2 Cor. 13:5 says MAKE SURE that Christ is in you, EXCEPT YOU BE REPROBATES. Rebrobates will never be forgiven, having grieved the very seal (Holy Ghost). This is the unpardonable sin. Quit trying to pardon something that God said is UNPARDONABLE. Yea, let God be true, and every man a liar (Romans 3:4). John 15 says that every branch IN CHRIST that beareth not fruit is TAKEN AWAY AND CAST INTO THE FIRE. Seek ye out of the Book of the Lord and READ (Is. 26)
Yup. Even xtians can't agree on the bible. So, even if I was convinced there was a god, I would have to decide which one is true. If I chose the xtian god, I would have 30k denominations to choose from. The odds are really stacked against you. If the bible was the word of god, why did god make it so contradictory, confusing, etc. I would think GODS word would be flawless and timeless.. Nope, must just be a bunch of bronze age men.
Man, I own like 20 Bibles or so, but none of them have whole phrases in all caps, where do I get one like that?
Is this what Fred Phelps does when he's not harassing mourners?
You are cherry picking verses and using several of them out of context. More than anything, You are hurting the cause of Christ. Just read the bloggers that responded to your last comments.
What's out of context or cherrypicked? You gave no examples (of course). Go and read the context - unless you are afraid of getting your Baptist/Reformed feelings hurt by the Bible... People who lied to Dan and told him he was once saved always saved - THESE people have hurt the cause of Christ. What about these two verses do you not understand: Ezek. 3:20,21 "Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die IN HIS SIN, and his righteousness which he hath done shall NOT be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul." When you tell righteous people they are ETERNALLY SECURE AND ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED, are you warning them? Dan's blood will be on the hands of the pastor(s) that told him this lie and caused him to be reprobate and fallen from grace, twice-dead and plucked up by the roots (Jude). Sad.
John 10:27-29
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Romans 8:35-39
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ephesians 1:13-14
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30
30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Hebrews 9:12
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
And then of course the argument goes, since you did nothing to earn your salvation, then what could you do to undo what Christ did?
So your side has some verses saying it can be lost, their side has some verses saying it can't, so at best we have a contradiction, which, of course would be impossible if the 66 books we have today are completely and totally the inerrant word of God.
Mark 16:
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.How many true believers here have had a tasty glass of poison? What are you waiting for?
As always Dan, I'm rooting for ya.
Mike, you bring up excellent points. Thou art not far from the Kingdom of God. Firstly, minor point, but there really are whole phrases that use caps in the Bible (See the KJV: Ex.28:36, 39:30; or Rev.17:5 "And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." etc.)I was using this for accent/emphasis as you are well aware... Sorry if my passion was construed as screaming in your eardrum.
Now, the verses you brought up each have a logical, contextual, and scriptural answer and are NOT a contradiction at all. The John 10:28 shows the conditional aspects (always conditioned upon present tense BELIEF/FAITH and not works). The sheep that will never perish are those that HEAR HIS VOICE AND FOLLOW HIM (present tense). No man can pluck them out of the Father's hand. We don't worry about a Pope or anybody plucking us out. But you can indeed leave God's hand. Jer. 22:24says God will pluck from His hand. The qualifier is hearing and following Him BY FAITH (not works, as the straw dummy arguments always arise). You missed the first of Rom.8 which says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those that are IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT." See the conditions? The Rom. 8 passage says again that nothing externally will separate us from the love of God. Note it doesn't say that you or sin can't separate you from God. Also, it is conditioned upon being IN CHRIST. It says the love of God "which is IN Christ Jesus our Lord." This is why Jude says "Keep yourselves in the love of God." This is why Jesus taught to abide in his love. John 15 says every branch IN HIM that beareth not fruit, is TAKEN AWAY, AND ARE THUS NOT IN CHRIST AND ARE THUS FLAT SEPARATED. They are now separated from the love of God WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS. God offers His love to the world through the person of Christ. You mentioned the Spirit being our seal. Amen and praise God. David prayed, "Take not thy Holy Spirit from me." (Ps. 51). This is why Eph. 4:30 says not to grieve the Spirit of God, whereby we are sealed. You don't grieve the Seal. Was he saying don't grieve the Spirit because you saved forever and going to heaven no matter what? This is cornball, eh? He was warning the church not the grieve the very seal. The Holy Ghost speaks in Heb. 3 and says what'll He'll do to those who grieve him: He swore in His wrath that they would NOT ENTER INTO REST. Jesus' redemption is eternal. Eternal means it never had a beginning or an end. He is called the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world (Rev.). Eternal life is Christ Himself (I John 1 and 5). When you are separated from Christ, guess what? You are separated from eternal life. Lastly, you mentinoed if we did nothing to earn salvation, we can do nothing to lose it. Flawed. We believed to obtain salvation, and we turn from the faith to lose it. We are saved by faith and belief, and we are lost by unbelief and turning from the faith. Peter said we are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH. When people deny the faith, depart from the faith, err from the faith, are reprobate concerning faith, shipwrecked concerning faith (all Bible phrases), they are not going to heaven. The Bible is not as hard as folks like Augustine made it by introducing this damnable and damning heresy of ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED.
Also, the other guy who put Mark 16:16, the Bible says "IF" you drink any deadly thing, not 'when' (this is from using a faulty sorry translation). God's supernatural protection was upon the apostles. Paul actually did take up a serpent (by accident), was bitten, and not harmed. Just because backwoods goofball churches misuse the passage doesn't disprove the Bible.
So who in fact determines or what determines when you are "erring in the faith"??? We all sin EACH AND EVERY DAY. What sin or sins would you say make you loose your salvation?? We are human and we will all sin. For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one. So how in the world do you think you can determine just how much sinning and what kind of sinning you can do everyday and still not loose your salvation. God doesn't rank sin. Sin is sin. ALL sins are covered under the blood of Jesus and yes, once saved always saved. It is because of His work on the cross I am going to heaven, not by anything I do or don't do. All I have to do is believe, repent and accept. I would hate to wake up every morning and wonder if I was going to heaven or not. That is a cruel way to live.
Anonymous of the Caps,
As I recall, the last few verses in Mark are in dispute with some as to whether they were part of the original or not anyway.
I totally agree with your interpretation of the verses we have all quoted here. As a Christian I always balanced the verses on this issue. I was actually in the if you fell away you must have been a false convert crowd, which is ironic given my current beliefs.
I'll have to dig out one of my actual KJV Bibles to see if they have the caps. My Ryrie study Bible should be easy to find, and it's KJV. I know you were using them for emphasis, I was just being silly.
Regardless of whether someone can lose their salvation or not, doesn't it ultimately come down to what is in Dan's heart, and isn't God the only one who can judge that?
You know the iPhone commercials where they say, "There's an app for that"? Well, I think the Bible is a lot like an iPhone ... There's a verse for that!
Those that believe that you can lose your salvation ... there's a verse for that!
Those that believe that you are eternally secure ... there's a verse for that!
Those that believe in freewill ... there's a verse for that!
Those that believe in predestination (from a Calvinist perspective) ... there's a verse for that!
Those that believe that Jesus is god ... there's a verse for that!
Those that believe that Jesus is only a man ... there's a verse for that!
Come visit the verse store! Get the verses you want because, well, there's a verse for that!
I've been following your blog for sometime now and, although I don't know you or your family very well, I did sit under your teaching a time or two and have been a member of the "church" you speak of. I have been praying for you and your family for many months and will continue to do so. It saddens me that Christians are so unloving towards you despite your opinions and feelings at this time. As a Christian, we are called to love as Christ loved and I find it hard to beleive that anyone could deny that Christ's love is unconditional.
I completly understand you're reasoning for not wanting to be a part of this so-called "christianity" right now. I, too, struggled with knowing what God expected from me shortly before leaving Heritage. I questioned my beliefs. I knew God didn't expect me to wear skirts/dresses all the time just to be "holy", yet I was rediculed and told I was a poor role model for children because of it. I stayed true to my beliefs and finally realized that their opinions did not matter... only God's did. I, too, have found a freedom. I have found a freedom in Christ that no one can take away from me.
I say all of this to hopefully be an encouragement to you during these somewhat difficult times. Despite all the ridicule you receive, God still loves you and there are other Christians out there who care and simply want God's will done in your and your families' lives.
I hope everything works out for you and your son, as well as the rest of your family. God bless!
Last poster said "God doesn't rank sin. Sin is sin." And this is why there were different punishments for O.T. sins, right? Because they were all equal, right? Jesus told Pilate "He who delivered me unto thee HATH THE GREATER SIN." Lam.4:6 speaks of GREATER iniquity than the sin of Sodom. Jesus said the Pharisees would receive GREATER CONDEMNATION. Why? B/c sin is sin? No! Matt. 12:13 speaks of unforgiveable sin -- why? B/c sin is all sin, right? Please read. Why do you think Paul warned the CHURCH of Galatians in Gal. 5:19-21 - "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." ?
Why did he warn them over and over? Was he saying, "Now, remember this, that whether you do these things are not, you are entering the Kingdom of God because you are once saved and always saved..."?
Also, another straw dummy argument: people are walking around worrying about losing their salvation. There are some like that, but what the Bible teaches is to walk in faith, believing the Lord to the saving of the soul, believing (present tense). Heb. 3 warns, "Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Teaching folks they can't depart from the faith is ignoring all the admonitions. Mike, you said we have 'some' verses and Eternal Security folks have 'some.' Not so. We literally have hundreds, and they have a handful of butchered ones, like the ones you posted. They can never handle the context. Their pillars become pillows, and don't hold up. The last warning in the Bible is not to tamper with the Bible or God WILL TAKE YOUR PART OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE. (See Revelation 22:19 and so on). You'll know when a brother has sinned a sin unto death (I John 5). He simply won't care and will blaspheme. Dan's name has been blotted out. Teaching folks to 'ride the edge' is dangerous. Once saved always saved will do just that. If you think you can commit adultery, lie, steal, etc. and will always be auto-forgiven, this is dangerous.
There quite literally is a verse for all things that pertain unto life and godliness. Your disgust is autobiographical in nature and only proves a hatred for the truth. Take heed, lest some of you wind up just like Dan. Dan would have never thought he was where he is now even ONE YEAR AGO. Take heed, brethren. "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
Firstly, minor point, but there really are whole phrases that use caps in the Bible (See the KJV: Ex.28:36, 39:30; or Rev.17:5 "And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." etc.)
I'll have to dig out one of my actual KJV Bibles to see if they have the caps.
The use of capitals in the English versions of the Bible is a method devised by men to emphasize whatever it is they cared to emphasize. The original languages of Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic did not have capital and small case letters. The letters of their alphabets were all the same size. So even if some Bibles completely capitalize an entire word, that does not mean anything other than the translators or the publishers of that Bible version decided to use capital letters for their own purposes.
For example, most English editions make a difference between use of the English word "god," spelling it as God or GOD and the word "lord," spelling it as Lord or LORD. These variations on using capital and small letters were indications of different Hebrew words used (elohim, adonai, etc) that would all be translated into the same English word.
When it comes to things like capitalizing MYSTERY BABYLON ... well, that has nothing to do with the original languages.
I know, Dan, I studied a tiny bit of Hebrew many moons ago, and a tiny bit of Greek. I was just curious about the capitals for emphasis, which, of course, was added by the publisher.
As to Revelation 22:18-19
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
It's a gross exaggeration to say it's talking about the whole Bible as the Bible as we know it didn't exist back then. It's referring specifically to Revelation.
Mike, It's not gross exaggeration to say that the last warning in the Bible is actually a reference to the whole Bible. Here's the verse again: Rev. 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Rather than gross exaggeration, it's what is known as Dual Application. God knew that there would be 66 books in the Bible and that Revelation would be the last book. His last admonition/warning was not to take words out. While the direct application is to the book of Prophecy (Revelation) we know from comparing scripture to scripture that the whole Bible is in view as well. In Rev. 19:10 it says "for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" and the Bible is called testimony/testimonies in several places (Ps. 119 for example). It's interesting to consider that the Bible is called 'prophecy of scripture' and 'word of prophecy' in 2 Pet. 1:19,20: "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation..."
In short, God ended the Book with a warning to not tamper with this Book, or get your name taken out of the Book of Life (and thus be cast into the Lake of Fire per Rev. 20:15).
This is where folks stumble at how God ordered the scriptures in a way to cause folks to have to trust Him for interpretation. Consider Isaiah 28:13 which says, "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." The reason doctrine is here a little and there a little, etc. is not to make things easy to understand (as the previous poster complained about the confusing nature of the Bible). One must humble himself as a child (see Isaiah 28 in context; he'll teach doctrine to those weaned from the breasts) to understand doctrine. He will hide these things from the 'wise and prudent' and reveal them unto babes. The Bible is thus a snare for the self-conceited, and a blessing to the humble. The Lord hath done this, and it is marvellous in our eyes. No flesh will glory in His presence. Throw yourself at His feet and tremble at His word or get your delusion chosen (Is. 66 - read).
"God knew that there would be 66 books in the Bible and that Revelation would be the last book"
"This is where folks stumble at how God ordered the scriptures in a way to cause folks to have to trust Him for interpretation."
You may know your Bible, but clearly you either know little about how it came about or choose to ignore the volumes of work studying it's origins.
Which of the 66 books has the index again?
"It is because of His work on the cross I am going to heaven, not by anything I do or don't do. All I have to do is believe, repent and accept."
that sounds very cheap to me. probably the cheapest belief that exists. :)
(i live in a country where catholicism dominates and i think most christians here are of the opinion that your good deeds count a lot if you want to go to heaven. i am an atheist but i like that point of view more.)
I used to be a member of Heritage Baptist Cult Church too. My husband is still brainwashed into a lot of that junk. And Bob Barton is a pervert in my opinion. My husband said he'd see him glancing at my rear several times when I'd walk off. Other women felt he was undressing them too. Plus, he told my daughter that he could see her underwear through her garment. This was disguised as pastoral care, but I think he needed to keep his eyes to himself. After so much pastoral abuse it was good to be free. Lots of good people are there (or used to be) and Bob was very charismatic and charming on the surface, but after a year or so you begin to notice strange trends. I hope and pray his skeletons come out of the closet for other's protection. My family told me it was a cult, but I argued with them at first. My husband would never address Bob because he would badger and intimidate people with logical arguments and lovey-dovey lingo until you felt ashamed for messing with him. As a woman, I couldn't say anything because women are doormats there. We caught him in several lies. I really don't know what all to believe out here with Dan's posts, but what he said about that so-called church is true and I know this firsthand. It will leave you emotionally scarred for life if you stay there for very long.
Dan, I came across your blog through yunshui. I think it's a real pity how Christians are questioning your salvation. I was a Christian for 3 years before becoming an atheist, and as such I understand that some will feel I didn't 'give it enough chance' (but that's another argument altogether) but you clearly dedicated, and spent most of your adult life doing what I don't believe you couldn't have without a deep conviction or belief.
I wish you the best in your journey of truth, because I understand the deep desire for integrity, which I also have. Thanks for sharing your experiences on this blog. Many people are behind you.
nessie
Personally, I don't question Dan's salvation one iota. He WAS clearly and compellingly saved and a preacher of the gospel. His testimony can be found online back when he was a believer and speaking at another church. MANY of his sermons can be found online. He passionately taught others and probably led people to the Lord.
However, he lost that salvation. Paul said this: I Cor.9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, WHEN I HAVE PREACHED TO OTHERS, I myself should be a CASTAWAY." Note that the word here for "castaway" (Greek 'adokimos') is also translated as "reprobate" in Rom. 1:28, 2 Cor. 13:5,6,7, and 2 Tim. 3:8, and Titus 1:16... Note also that the branches IN CHRIST in John 15 that didn't bear fruit, were TAKEN AWAY from Christ and CAST forth and BURNED (Go and read - be not afraid to read). But what does the Bible say about being a castaway? Comparing scripture with scripture, Jesus said this in Matt. 16:26, "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and LOSE HIS OWN SOUL?" Contrast this with a parallel account: Luke 9:25"For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and LOSE HIMSELF, or be CAST AWAY?" So, you can see that being a castaway is LOSING YOUR OWN SOUL. Reprobates do not go to heaven, folks. This is why Paul warned the church of Corinth in 2 Cor.13:5 to examine themselves whether they be in the faith and to prove themselves and know whether Jesus Christ was IN THEM, EXCEPT THEY BE REPROBATES. Reprobates no longer have Christ in them.
Dan did indeed have salvation, and having preached to others, he is now a castaway (reprobate), and has LOST HIS OWN SOUL (LOST HIS SALVATION). This is the PLAIN BIBLE, FOLKS. Do yourself a big favor: take off the Baptist, Augustinian, Reformed glasses and quit believing the original lie to mankind to deceive mankind: "Ye shall NOT surely die." God says in Ezekiel 18:4 & 20: "The soul that sinneth, it SHALL die." Ezekiel wasn't an Eternal Security Preacher like the Serpent in the beginning, eh? Since we are in Ezekiel 18, let's look at another passage. You might say that God is not just/equal to damn the likes of Dan after preaching for Him for almost 2 decades, but: Ezek.18:24-26 " But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die."
Man's ways aren't equal. Man's doctrine (like once-saved, always saved) can fill pews and line preacher's wallets and bank accounts, but will likewise line hell.
If you could ask Dan's family if he was saved, I'm sure they'll tell you ABSOLUTELY. And likewise, they see what happens when you fall from grace. Dan himself, being a good Baptist, taught them once-saved, always saved, and now they see otherwise in reality - in living 3D. And as they read the Bible now, I bet there's a whole different (and true) perspective. Pray for them.
One point of clarification: The in and out of salvation views of extreme Holiness camps, Church of Christ, etc. is likewise false. Hebrews 6 teaches if a person falls away, it's IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again unto repentance. We believe to the saving of the soul -- we trust in the Living God to keep us by faith. We are secure IN CHRIST. This is conditional eternal security. It is conditioned upon being in Christ and being 'kept by the power of God through faith' as Peter stated. The teaching that you can never be lost has lined hell and likewise the teaching that you lose your salvation every other day is lining hell as well. You can know that you have eternal life as a present possession, and indeed, Eternal Life is a Person: Jesus Christ (See I John 1 and 5 too). So, the straw dummy argument that people who believe in the Biblical teaching of 'falling away' can't know they are saved and secure in Christ - is just that - a straw dummy argument.
Dan,
Great news that your son is doing better. You have great patience, I know if my wife had my 9 year old arrested and charged with battery I would never forgive her.
For all the anonymouses; Pascals wager? Really? Is that the best you can do? All this "my interpretation of my imaginary friend's book is better than your interpretation of your imaginary friend's book" stuff is ridiculous.
For the people who "know" the bible is true, It's. all. in. your. head., I've heard of people equally convinced that the government is beaming mind control rays at them from secret CIA satellites and/or lizard people are taking over the government so they can eat us all or some such. Dudes, there are doctors (and medications) that can help you sort fantasy from reality, take off the tin foil hats and look into it!
Cheers & Happy Monkey,
Ray
Letting out more rope, Dan? ;-)
Dan doesn't need to let out any more rope. He has already hanged himself.
And yet more rope. let those filled with hate continue to hang themselves.
Mike, you are only hearing Dan's side of this. Just because some people would like to see justice done does not mean we are filled with hate.
Anyone who calls another human being a reprobate is hate filled.
I will say once again that I have no idea if Dan is innocent, but he has conducted himself with nothing but class in my virtual presence, that's much more than can be said of some of the "Christians" who have posted here.
Hey anonymouse, can you really think that anyone who doesn't believe exactly as you do must be an "idiot"? How narrow minded. I am not superstitious myself, but I respect the right of others to believe what they want as long as they don't try to force it on anyone else. When someone tries to push their fantasies into law or tells me what I should think, that gets me steamed. All in all I prefer rationality over dogma.
Cheers & Happy Monkey,
Ray
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