I wanted to take a moment and address a point. It comes from a comment I received on this blog as well as some emails I have received and some things that have been said about me. There are certainly people who believe that I am lying about a number of things. Some believe that I am lying about my innocence. Some believe much more than that. They believe that I have been a deceiver and that I have been purposefully deceiving people for a good part, if not all, of my life. I suppose that what these people are really calling into question is the past 17 or so years since I first became a Christian. Because I now so vehemently deny the Christ and God of the Bible, many assume that I could never have been truly "saved" 17 years ago when I first made my confession of faith. This would, of course, call the last 17 years into question.
But I was not the standard pew sitter. I was a preacher and a missionary. This may make it more difficult for some people to accept that I no longer believe in Christ or the Bible. They may feel it is necessary to defend their own belief system and to do so by trying their best to discredit me. How do you compensate for a person who, not only claimed that he was a believer, but taught the Bible, preached the Bible, went to serve on the mission field and sacrificed his life for the ministry, but then one day walks away from the faith? It seems that, for some, the remedy for this is to claim that I have always been a deceiver and that I must have been a damn good one at that!
I want to take a few moments to talk about the last 17 years of my life. On June the 1st, 1991, not long after returning from Dessert Storm, I came to a place where I heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and accepted him into my heart. I was at someone's home and they led me through a sinner's prayer. Afterward I can remember that I felt lighter ... like a great weight had been lifted off of me. The next day I can remember that the sky seemed bluer and the grass greener. I was baptized, based on my confession of faith that following Sunday at Victory Baptist Church in Clemmons, North Carolina.
The pastor of that church recommended that I attend Piedmont Bible College (now Piedmont Baptist College) to get a degree in the Bible. I applied, was accepted and completed a year at that school before transferring to the Institute of Biblical Studies (IBS) which, at that time, was a part of the Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry. It was while at PBC that I met Melanie and it was not long after that that we were wed.
After graduating from IBS we began to serve in churches by teaching things like Jewish evangelism, the importance of Israel in God's plan, basic doctrine and many teachings on the historical backgrounds to key biblical passages. For the next six or seven years I took no money from the church. I worked to support my growing family. I would chose jobs, not based on what I wanted to do or how much money I could make, but on if they offered me the ability to keep ministering. This meant I needed flexibility in scheduling. My mindset was to minister and working only served the purpose of providing shelter, clothing and food. There was no mindset of getting rich or even getting ahead. All was done to minister.
Eventually we moved from Virginia to New Jersey. One church that loved us and wanted to support us in our efforts to reach the Jew with the Gospel and wanted to help us go to Israel was Berean Baptist Church in Magnolia, New Jersey. We moved to be close to them and to work with their people for a few years before heading off to Israel. The pastor asked me to serve on his elder staff and, as a result, I was there to help with the decision making process of the church along with the other elders. As a side note, when I was in the process of becoming a pastor at Heritage Baptist Church in Vinton, Virginia, Pastor Barton talked with the pastor of Berean Baptist. The word he got was that Dan Silverman was a man of integrity that could be trusted with even the most sensitive of information.
While at Berean, I was encouraged by the pastor to prepare to be ordained. I was required to write an ordination paper that detailed my beliefs. I still have this 20+ page document on my computer. In order to be ordained in that system, I had to go before a board and be reviewed. My doctrinal statement was read beforehand and the board was to question me at length so that they could hear my answers. Unless I satisfied this board, I could not be ordained.
I still have my ordination certificate that I earned that day. Some of the people on the board included my pastor, Richard Vauhgn, and William Krewson, who is currently the director of the Institute of Jewish Studies (then called IBS) and was then a prominent professor there. According to these men, I was not only prepared to be ordained, but that they were impressed with how well I knew the Scriptures and was easily able to provide answers to their extensive questions. The entire interview process was recorded by a member of Lighthouse Baptist Church.
The pastor of Berean Baptist Church, Pastor Vaughn, had family members that attended a Baptist Church in Delaware. This church had a variety of troubles and the result was a church split that formed a new congregation. This "split" did not have a pastor and, as a result, was reeling from a lack of stability. Berean sent me down to be the interim pastor in order to help bring stability and hold the place together while the church was being established and while a permanent pastor was being sought. During my six months or so at Light House Baptist Church, which was the name of this new congregation, the church grew and the people grew to love me and my family.
With my time done at Lighthouse, we prepared our family for the big move to Israel! In December, right after 911, at the height of an Intifada against the people of Israel, we flew out from JFK airport and soon landed in Tel Aviv to start our new life as missionaries in the land of Israel. We gladly went to there to live in Jerusalem despite the fact that they were almost daily (at that time) getting missile attacks and bus bombings. We, as a family, were willing to sacrifice our lives for the ministry to the people of Israel.
I served with Meno Kalisher, an Israeli pastor, at his church, the Jerusalem Assembly House of Redemption. I was a member of his staff, meeting weekly to help make decisions about the church, to help in counseling and to teach and to preach. I taught in the church, taught Bible studies in our apartment and traveled much with Meno to visit with people who needed help. I participated in evangelistic campaigns distributing leaflets throughout Jerusalem to encourage the people to discover the Jewish Messiah, Jesus. I helped create a facelift for Jerusalem Assembly's evangelistic web site that promoted the "truth" about Jesus in Hebrew to the people of Israel.
I labored to serve there in the land of Israel and, on top of it all, I worked to support our family. Churches had given sacrificially to get us set up in Israel. But monthly financial support was usually around $500 a month, though we had some higher months. However, living in Israel is very expensive. A vehicle costs at least twice as much there as in the USA. I eventually leased a small seven passenger car (a Mazda 5) at the cost of $1500 per month! Food was more expensive. Gas cost about $7 per gallon and that was years before this last gas hike we all experienced. I worked to support my family on top of all the labor I did for the ministry.
Our home was constantly full of people from the church. We had purposefully found a place with a very large living room in order that we could hold church events there. Jerusalem Assembly, despite having 250-300 people in attendance at the time, did not have its own building. Therefore they rented a place for their weekly worship meetings. All other events had to be in someone's home. On top of this, we would often have events where we would invite neighbors as well as members from our church. The purpose was to introduce our neighbors to Jewish believers, to build a dialog and to help evangelize them.
After 3.5 years of living in Jerusalem, we moved to the north of Israel, above the Sea of Galilee to a village called Yasod HaMa'alah. Our goal was to go to a place where there was not a church and to start one by evanglizing the people in that area. We ministered there, working with both believers that we had discovered and witnessing to non-believers, for about a year before coming back to the USA to help take care of Melanie's elderly mother.
We were big believers in the family, believing that the Bible placed a huge emphasis on parent-child relationships. This was one of the motivating factors that caused us to make another international move away from Israel and back to the United States. Melanie's mother was almost 80 at the time and it was becoming apparent that she was struggling to take care of herself. When we moved back we made sure to find a home to rent that had enough space for our family of six (four children, my wife and I) and for her mother. We were ready for her to move in with us and for us to take care of her. Of course this produced additional expenses. A larger home was needed which would cost more to rent. Eventually Melanie's mom moved in with us.
Later we became more involved in Melanie's brother's life. Ed was about 50 and has been a severe alcoholic since about 18. He had been to about every recovery and addictions program that he could go to. We even took him into our home and were trying to help him! When he eventually moved out and went back to drinking, I would make sure to stop by his place, visit with him and try to encourage him away from drinking. Frequently Melanie and her mother would thank me for the time and effort I had put into Ed.
I could go on, but I write all this to make a point:
WHAT WAS MY MOTIVATION FOR DECEIVING EVERYONE FOR THE LAST 17 YEARS OF MY LIFE?
Did I get rich from my Christian experience? No. Most of our marriage we were on the edge of poverty. I can remember fitting the six of us in our five passenger car that was always on the verge of overheating because that car was all we could afford!
What did I have to gain by deceiving people about being a Christian for 17 years?
The answer is, I was not deceiving people. I honestly believed that Christ was God and that the Bible was God's word. I studied that book. I taught that book. I prayed and would plead with God. I was definitely sincere. The last 17 years of my life have been a dedication to Christ and his word. None of that was deception.
However, I have certainly come to a place where I came to see things more clearly. I came out from under the delusion of fundamentalist Christianity and now I believe the Bible is not the word of God and that the Gospels are fiction. There are many factors that have led me to these conclusions. This does not make me deceptive. If I had wanted to have been deceptive, I could have hidden this and acted like I still believed when I did not. Instead, despite the problems I knew this would cause, I told my wife and pastor what I believed about Christ, God and the Bible.
I did not deceive. I lived my life according to what I believed and I still do.
66 comments:
Obviously you were planting the seeds of the Devil. :-P
I usually get the "you were never a true Christian" accusation, but never has anyone claimed I was a deceiver the whole time.
It just shows what depths people will go to in defending their beliefs.
But that's sort of the point. If I was never a Christian, then what was a doing for 17 years? I was either deceiving everyone, knowing I was not a Christian, or I honestly believed that I was a Christian. However, because I was a pastor and a missionary, and not the typical pew warmer, my case is more severe in the minds of those that knew me. I suppose that drives them to new depths. When you add the accusation against me into the mix, it furthers their belief that I must have been a deceiver all along.
You are assuming there is a logical reason for this accusation.
They have to come up with some sort of rationalization for why you were indistinguishable from them for 17 years. They are terrified they could end up like you.
It's their only defense. It was what I was taught growing up about people who used to be in the church but "fell away". My parents said "they were never really Christians in the first place". I also believed with all my heart when I was in the thick of it. It's amazing looking back on that now of how willfully ignorant we make ourselves to continue believing.
I get this one occasionally as well. Mike has hit the nail on the head - TrueChristians have a terrible phobia of backsliding, and as a coping mechanism, they assert that anyone who has fallen from grace was never really saved to being with. It's a ridiculous argument, tantamount to saying, "you had a pet marmoset, your marmoset was eaten by a heron, therefore you never had a marmoset."
By the way, Dan, I've been reading your blog for a while now, and just felt I should de-lurk to say firstly, how much I feel for you, and secondly, how sensibly and maturely you seem to be conducting yourself. I look forward to a rapid and peaceful resolution to your troubles.
Churches are full of people who say they are Christians, say they believe the bible, say they are saved, become pastors, deacons, teachers, missionaries, you name it. Saying a "sinner's prayer does not save anyone if it does not come from the heart. There are plenty of wolves in sheep's clothing.
If you think about it, you were the one being deceived.
Keep up the good fight.
I don't want to get into a theological debate, but I believe the bible is very clear that once you are saved you are always saved. I'm not worried about losing my salvation. I did nothing to earn my salvation other than except Jesus Christ as my personal Savior by faith. It is Christ who saved me and it is He who keeps me. Dan, I pray that you and the others who have made comments here about not believing will come to know Jesus in a personal way as your Savior and Lord. There is no peace like the peace which only He can give. I have been praying for you and your family. I know that only Jesus can save you and bring you and your family back together if you will only humble yourself before Him. I'm sure if your wife is a Christian and loves the Lord as you say, then she probably desires to see you saved and your family united in Christ. I am praying for you and for them.
"I don't want to get into a theological debate, but I believe the bible is very clear that once you are saved you are always saved."
Unless you believe the other scripturally supported view. I'm not arguing, I'm just pointing out that the other side can support their views with scripture just like you can.
Regardless, saved or not, Dan believed in Christ and now does not. No deception required.
"Dan, I pray that you and the others who have made comments here about not believing will come to know Jesus in a personal way as your Savior and Lord. There is no peace like the peace which only He can give."
You don't get that we once experienced those same feelings. It appears that you are going with the "you weren't really a true Christian" argument here.
The one scriptural test for whether someone is a true Christian is fruit. I know I produced it and from Dan's descriptions of his ministry days, he did too. We weren't deceiving anyone.
Hi Dan, I've been reading for a while and I just wanted to delurk to say I do believe you truly were a Christian- so was I and probably many of your readers. I went to bible college too, and I probably would have lived a life just like yours if I didn't wake up from the delusion right before graduating. I felt called to be a missionary, too. I'm so glad I got out of it when I did. Don't lose hope; there are so many of us that went through similar things. You're not alone! I'm just lucky most of my family thought I was crazy when I was a fundamental christian- now they are glad to have me "back to normal".
I forgot to say, I also believed the same thing as a Christian- I was taught "once saved, always saved" and I would have believed that someone like you was never really born again. Now I know how ridiculous it all was...
Hmmm...once saved, always saved. I too have been taught this same thing, all my life. And I believe it. And I also believe that Dan was saved. I have experienced his teachings...and I do not believe that it was the teachings of someone that wanted to decieve. Not at all. The only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy...and I don't believe that Dan has done that. SO... if Dan was truely saved, then Dan will be in Heaven with those of us who have also been saved. Anyways, how can you (Krafty Keri) say that you don't believe that Dan was saved. #1 do you know him? #2 are you God, and do you know what kind of relationship that he had with God those 17 years? #3 And if you believe that once saved always saved, you may want to dig into your Bible a little deeper and read some scripture that speaks about not judging. don't really think that's any of our places... so lay off it. And it you're going to preach at Dan, get all your stuff straight before you try and play God.
DJ,
Unless I am misreading something, Kraft Kari was saying that she thought that I WAS SAVED. Here is what she said:
"I do believe you truly were a Christian"
The only things that are worth saving are one's files in one's computer.
As far as we can check, there is no soul, only brain. And brain (therefore soul) rots after death. There is no way to save it.
"I forgot to say, I also believed the same thing as a Christian- I was taught "once saved, always saved" and I would have believed that someone like you was never really born again. Now I know how ridiculous it all was..."
this is what i read, and what i got from that was that she was saying that you really weren't "born again"...so I don't know...maybe i misunderstood... and if so i do apologize.
I read that as, if she were still a believer herself that she would have to conclude that I was never saved. Read her first post (above the one you quote from). She states that she came out of Christianity.
stand corrected.
Dan HAS blasphemed. Dan has comitted the sin unto death that I John warns about, has done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb. 10), and it is impossible to renew him again unto repentance (Heb. 6), and he has become entangled again and overcome (I Pet. 2:20,21), and his soul will die (James 5:19,20), and he is TWICE DEAD, plucked up by the roots (Jude), he has grieved the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 4:30) which was his only seal.
You cannot be born again and then become "unborn again". If you are born again, then you are a Christian and you are saved. Those who have truly asked Christ to forgive their sins and save them are born again spiritually by being baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit and they are sealed forever. If they later deny that it is true, then they were either deceived into thinking they really believed in the first place, or they are now deceived into thinking that it is not true.
Herein lies the problem. Because of the 'ye shall not surely die' doctrine of the devil in the beginning, Dan was exposed to this false Baptist teaching over and over and had no fear of 'after preaching to others' becoming a castaway (reprobate/reject) (See 2 Cor. 9:27). All the Baptist preachers to encouraged Dan in this lie will give account for yet another reprobate concerning the faith. Ezekiel 3,18, and 30 are passages to consider. It says if a RIGHTEOUS MAN TURNS FROM THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS, their righteousness will not be remembered, and the person who didn't warn them will be held accountable. Satan is still using this 'ye shall surely die' eternal stupidity doctrine and now look at Dan: a reprobate, impossible to be renewed again unto repentance. Good going, Baptists. Read YOUR BIBLE.
Folks, people can debate here and hate me all they want. That is not going to bother me. However, I will not allow comments to be posted that speak of the person that accused me of the sexual crime. This is not because I am trying to hide it, but it is to protect the one that made the accusation. Even when the news reported on me they did not report about the accuser. This was to protect her identity. For those of you that know me, my family, the accuser, the church I was a part of, etc, you are showing how shallow you are by either naming the accuser in your comments or referencing the individual. Your anger toward me, your hatred toward me and your desire to prove me a liar has caused you to not consider others and, in this case, the accuser.
Feel free to send your comments. However, I will certainly reject any that give a clear reference to the identity of the accuser. Think of others for a change.
and who are you to say that baptist or any other denomination is false?
And who are you to say that Dan is telling the truth?
"And who are you to say that Dan is telling the truth?"
And who are you to say that Dan is lying? Oh that's right your so proud of your Jesus that you won't even use a name. Peter seemed to do well hiding his identity, let's see how well it works out for you.
Dan could be lying through his teeth, if he is he is doing it very well. He has blogged here with the appearance of integrity, that's much than can be said of nameless cowards.
i'm not saying that he is, and i'm not saying that he isn't. but i am giving him the benefit of a doubt. maybe you should try that. how would you feel if you were in his shoes?
Who said I was a christian? Mike you don't know what you are talking about and neither do you DJ. I would not be in Dan's shoes because I would not commit a sex crime against a child or anyone else.
I did not commit a sex crime against a child or anyone else, either. You are judging not even knowing the facts. Even this blog does not have all the facts. I am prohibited to write about a lot of things as a result of the case. This should be easily understood by just about anyone.
Secondly, despite the charge, the accusation is for a single, one second touch on the chest. No penetration. No sodomy. No rape. No one has accused me of more than that. Period.
Forgive me Anonymous, mostly Christians have been attacking Dan, I shouldn't assume.
I will, however, assume you mean we don't know what we are talking about because we don't know any of the people involved in the case personally? That is true, but unless you witnessed the event in question, you don't know what happened either.
Again, he could be totally guilty, I'm going to assume, along with the court system, that he is innocent until proven guilty.
"They are terrified they could end up like you."
I realize that Christ died for the vilest of sinners and if it were not for the grace of God, I would go to hell when I die, but I am not afraid of ending up like Dan or like you. I know I am a sinner and I know that Christ is God and the gospels are not fiction. This is about the charge against Dan, not about his beliefs.
Sounds like Dan was deceived into thinking he believed in the first place. I wonder if he has deceived others about the charges against him, since he was so easily deceived himself.
"Why would the girl lie?"
That is what the trial is about, isn't it?
Also, you (like many, especially those within Christianity) see everything in terms of black and white. Either/or. No in-betweens or other possibilities.
I'm thinking we have multiple Anonymous posters, that gets rather confusing.
tell me about it mike! seriously. you all really need to start using names. and who are you (anonymous) to say that i don't know what i'm talking about...maybe you don't know what you are talking about. i guess we will never know this side of heaven, huh?
Wow Dan, looks like some of your Christian pals are keeping tabs on you.
You Christians want to know why complete strangers believe so strongly that Dan is telling the truth? Because we've been THERE. We know what fundamentalist Christianity does to weak-minded people. Here's a short list of the things I've seen close congregations and personal friends turn on each other, vehemently over:
Communion should be done every Sunday instead of once a month.
Lively songs being sung instead of slow, self-flagellating songs (I'm such a sinner, I'm worst than the filth, etc.)
One that's been discussed here, once saved always saved vs. loosing salvation
A woman of the congregation living with a man who wasn't her husband.
A female interim pastor.
Speaking in tongues.
These are the ones I could think of off the top of my head. So do I think that someone could of gotten a little girl to lie about bad touching because someone became an atheist? Hell yes! Because when I was a fundie, there was NOTHING worse than atheists. They were beyond evil. And I am proud as hell today to be calling myself one.
This is Lanakila speaking here. All these anonymous posters arguing about once saved always saved have to realize how stupid the argument is to us who do not believe anymore. Since we don't believe God exists to send us to heaven or hell, or care how we live, and that there is not a thing to be saved from they should take the argument elsewhere.
Dan isn't deceiving anyone and was instead deceived for many years into following a religion and even serving a deity that doesn't exist. There is no evidence of the existence of a devil, none whatsoever. There is no Holy Spirit that fills believers either. I've asked Christians for evidence repeatedly and there isn't any to give and they have to admit it.
Those who do not believe Christ and the bible are the ones being deceived. I will pray for you.
Thanks for the prayers anonymous. Could you sacrifice a goat or two while you're at it?
"This is Lanakila speaking here. All these anonymous posters arguing about once saved always saved have to realize how stupid the argument is to us who do not believe anymore."
If you stopped believing, then that means you do not have faith and you never believed in the first place. You may have thought you believed, but you were deceived into thinking you believed. Either you have faith or you don't.
"Since we don't believe God exists to send us to heaven or hell, or care how we live, and that there is not a thing to be saved from they should take the argument elsewhere."
The subject is "My (Dan's)Deception". There are two possibilities. Either Dan thought he believed for 17 years or he was going through the motions, which means he was deceiving everyone. I would be curious to know when Dan started questioning his faith. At that point, he was deceiving everyone by continuing to pretend that he believed. From what Dan has written, his "de-conversion" did not happen over night. He just finally admitted the truth after 17 years.
"Dan isn't deceiving anyone and was instead deceived for many years into following a religion and even serving a deity that doesn't exist."
Dan is deceiving everyone including himself.
"There is no evidence of the existence of a devil, none whatsoever. There is no Holy Spirit that fills believers either. I've asked Christians for evidence repeatedly and there isn't any to give and they have to admit it."
There is evidence. It is the Word of God. Without faith you cannot know the truth. If you choose not to believe it, then that is your choice.
"If you stopped believing, then that means you do not have faith and you never believed in the first place."
If you read that out loud, does it still make sense to you?
How about the opposite: If you started believing, then that means you do have faith and you never were an unbeliever.
Makes for a nice Zen riddle, but it makes no sense otherwise.
Most of us believed in Santa Claus at one point, are you saying we never actually believed in Santa Claus?
"There is evidence. It is the Word of God. Without faith you cannot know the truth."
So the evidence is the word of God, which we can't understand unless we have faith, which we can't have without understanding the word of God. Got it.
"If you choose not to believe it, then that is your choice."
One cannot choose to believe something, just like they cannot choose not to believe something.
Please try to believe in heffalumps or woozles, for example. See? It didn't work.
"Dan is deceiving everyone including himself."
How nonjudgmental of you. Is that a log in your eye?
did you ever do something real often, and then decided something about it just wasn't right? like drinking...or smoking, or gambling....adultry...watching R rated movies. (you can put anything there.) you started questioning your morals? i'm sure that most everyone has been in a situation like this. and it's pretty much the same thing that you are accusing dan of, wouldn't you agree Anne?
no one....and i mean NO ONE can judge what's in or was in dan's heart. you can't say that he was decieving everyone...and i can't say that he wasn't. neither of us can say that his faith wasn't real. if you (Anne) are a christian, then you wouldn't be judging dan, you'd be praying for him. speaking out and against dan, just makes you look a fool...and you're giving us genuine christians bad names... because of the way you are acting. so maybe you should examine yourself.
"If you stopped believing, then that means you do not have faith and you never believed in the first place."
"If you read that out loud, does it still make sense to you?"
Yes, either you have faith in Christ or you don't. We are not talking about Santa Claus.
"How about the opposite: If you started believing, then that means you do have faith and you never were an unbeliever."
Everyone is born an unbeliever. That is why we need to be born again spiritually.
"So the evidence is the word of God, which we can't understand unless we have faith, which we can't have without understanding the word of God. Got it."
Yes, the evidence is the Word of God, and yes we cannot understand it unless the Holy Spirit indwells us, and yes (Lanakila), once we place our faith in Christ, then the Holy Spirit indwells us and enlightens the scriptures for us. Without Him it is impossible. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Faith comes first, then understanding, and no, Mike, you don't get it, because you obviously never really had faith in Christ.
"One cannot choose to believe something, just like they cannot choose not to believe something."
Yes, Mike we choose to believe or not believe.
"Please try to believe in heffalumps or woozles, for example. See? It didn't work."
I choose not to believe in heffalumps or woozles. See? It works.
"Dan is deceiving everyone including himself."
"How nonjudgmental of you. Is that a log in your eye?"
Yes, I am judging Dan, but I think I know Dan a whole lot better than you do, Mike. I may have a log in my eye, but at least I will admit I am a sinner. Will you and Dan?
well apparently anne missed out on the "do not judge" sermon.
Matthew 7:1,2
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way as you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
Romans 2
1. You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
...just a few.
Annie, I don't know you, or relationship to Dan. I have said repeatedly that I don't know if he is innocent or guilty.
"Mike, you don't get it, because you obviously never really had faith in Christ."
There you go with the judging again. Ask any of my Christian friends if they thought I knew Christ while I was a Christian and they will tell you yes.
You spouting the No True Scotsman fallacy does not change the reality of my faith of 20 years.
I did believe and I no longer do. Many people have done the same.
"Yes, Mike we choose to believe or not believe."
For the last 6 months or so of my life as a Christian, prostrated myself at the foot of the cross daily, begging God to make himself more real to me, more tangible, at least as tangible as another person. Certainly he provided evidence for people in the Bible when they needed it, why not for me? You can only listen to your voice echoing so long before you realize no one is listening.
I tried and tried and tried to believe more fully, I chose to believe more fully, it did not work. I still to this day ask God if he exists and he remains silent.
"I choose not to believe in heffalumps or woozles. See? It works."
Cute, but that proves my point, you can't just choose to believe in something that doesn't appear to exist.
"I may have a log in my eye, but at least I will admit I am a sinner. Will you and Dan?"
I don't believe in sin as you do. I do believe in sin as much as it is against others, and I have wronged others in the past and repented of it. I fully admit that I am a flawed human being.
oh, and how do you know dan better than anyone that reads this blog, Anne? care to share?
No, DJ, I do not care to share.
"There you go with the judging again. Ask any of my Christian friends if they thought I knew Christ while I was a Christian and they will tell you yes."
Mike, your friends may very well have thought you knew Christ at the time, but if they think that you lost your salvation, then they are sadly mistaken. You are not saying you lost your salvation. You are saying that you believed in something that is not true. I know Christ, and I know that His Word is true. If you are saved, then you will come back to Him. I do not see how anyone can truly know Christ and then talk about Him the way you, Dan and others do. This is why I say that you probably never really knew Him to begin with even if you "felt" like you did or had some kind of "experience". I think it is possible that you really thought you were saved, but were trying to live the Christian life by your own efforts and works like so many people do. There are many so called good people in this world who try to live a good life and do good and are depending on that to get them into heaven instead of putting their faith and trusting in Christ as their Savior and in His atoning death and resurrection as payment for their sins.
Annie, I used to make identical arguments to yours. I did not try to live the Christian life by my means, my Christian life was daily prayer and relying on God to lead me. I've never tried to do anything then or now to get into heaven.
I think we have gotten a tad off topic, so to bring it back to deception I will say this: I never made a decision to not believe in God, there was not some secret sin I did not confess to God. I openly and honestly sought a deeper relationship with God.
"I do not see how anyone can truly know Christ and then talk about Him the way you, Dan and others do."
Yep, that's the same thing I would have said a few years ago. If it ever happens to you, you will understand. I'm sure you think it never will, but so did I.
funny how preacher annie continues to preach to dan and mike, YET... she still ignores the scripture. hmmm...
and if you don't want to tell us how you know dan so well, maybe you should just keep little pieces of info like that to yourself.
Mike, You are exactly right. This IS about deception. It is very easy to be deceived into believing anything if we allow it. Like I said, if you are saved, then you will come back, if not, then you are deceived that you did believe. It's that simple.
Wow.
Anne, the self-deception you harbor is baffling.
Good thing Dan got out when he did if you are an example of what he used to surround himself with.
Deception? Yes, I would definitely say you and Dan are deceived. Mike, you have both made a willing decision to deny Christ whether you want to admit it or not. Nobody is putting a gun to your heads. God did not answer you the way you wanted so you decided He does not exist. That is your decision. That does not mean He does not exist. You may say that just because some people believe the bible is true does not make it so. All I can say is that one of us is wrong, and I will put my trust in Christ.
see once again, giving Christians a bad rep!!!
"It is very easy to be deceived into believing anything if we allow it."
So my seeking God led me to be deceived. Interesting, so much for Seek ye first the kingdom of God.
It's funny how all the good Christians are being the judgmental ones. If God wants to condemn me for honestly seeking him, then that's his prerogative.
Mo, where did I say God doesn't exist? All I've said is that I sought him and got no answer. I'm guessing he doesn't exist, but I do not know he doesn't exist.
Me thinks thou dost protest too much.
"If God wants to condemn me for honestly seeking him, then that's his prerogative."
God knows the heart. He does not condemn anyone for honestly seeking Him.
Jeremiah 29:13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.
God is not a liar, so you must not have been seeking Him with all your heart.
"Mo, where did I say God doesn't exist? All I've said is that I sought him and got no answer."
I admit that was my mistake. I apologize for that.
"I'm guessing he doesn't exist, but I do not know he doesn't exist."
hmm, you admit you are guessing. I know I am not.
"Me thinks thou dost protest too much."
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you.
"God did not answer you the way you wanted so you decided He does not exist."
Where are you getting this stuff?
Atheists (or Agnostics) don't arrive at the conclusion that your god doesn't exist just because we didn't get the job promotion we were praying for or some other such circumstance.
Dan has clearly stated that his denial of a supreme being had nothing to do with him not getting something, but with him finally applying reason, logic, and science to his world view. You should try it, but be prepared for a shock.
But you won't try it, because you are a fundie and fundies don't care about the arguments of the non-believers because we are all evil.
Well do me a favor Mo: give me evidence for your god. Show me why I should believe in him based off of your book, give me evidence why he is the right one and not the thousands upon thousands of other deities. Give me something substantial and I will re-convert.
Ender, I was already there most of my life. I put faith in intellect and the world view until I realized that there had to be something more. I asked God to show me if the bible is true and He has. I guess I was truly seeking Him with all my heart, because He has revealed Himself and the truth of His Word to me.
"But you won't try it, because you are a fundie and fundies don't care about the arguments of the non-believers because we are all evil."
I never said that all non-believers are evil. But since you brought it up, let's look at what my God says in His Word:
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
This is not just speaking of non-believers. We all are sinners. The only difference between you and me is that my God has forgiven my sins because I have accepted what He has done for me.
"Well do me a favor Mo: give me evidence for your god. Show me why I should believe in him based off of your book, give me evidence why he is the right one and not the thousands upon thousands of other deities. Give me something substantial and I will re-convert."
Ender, I wish there was something I could say to convince you, but only God can do that. He says you must seek Him with all your heart and that you must humbly come to Him in faith. He is the One True Living God. His Word (Jesus Christ) is alive.
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The circular reasoning crowd of Christians seem to have joined us. Using the Bible to try to convince someone of God's existence is circular because we are questioning the God of the Bible's existence. Funny I lost my faith trying to prove God's existence and give an answer for the hope that lied within me. I don't believe Dan is deceived or was deceiving anyone. It's hard for OSAS Christians to wrap their heads around someone earnestly and honestly losing their faith, but quite frankly it's a much more common phenomena than many of them could possibly understand. I recommend that anyone who believes in this doctrine to join exchristians.net and try to convince all those former Christians that they were lying and never really were believers before.
Many of you OSAS folks used to belong to other religions, and you changed your beliefs when you were saved. This is the same thing that happens when you deconvert.
Lanakila
Lanakila, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you are dead wrong. It is not the same at all. I came out of a religion. Religion is man-made. It is man trying to work his way to God. What I have now is a personal relationship with the Creator. Unless you experience it yourself, then you cannot possibly ever understand.
this is true. religion? no thank you. relationship is what i have!!!
When you actually see your creator with your own eyes, feel his reassuring hand on your shoulder, and hear his voice all with your actual 5 senses, as opposed to spiritually feeling them, then you can tell me you have a personal relationship with your creator. Until then you are just another Christian who is making himself believe what he needs to.
"Unless you experience it yourself, then you cannot possibly ever understand."
And as far as this goes, most ex-Christians HAVE been there and experienced that; I know I have and I remember the sensations quite vividly. The difference is I recognize them for what they were: placebo-effect emotions stirred up by ritual.
I know that you tell yourself that we were never really Christians and that we have never REALLY felt the presence of god or Jesus. Well, whatever helps you sleep at night, even if you have to lie to yourself. But then again, I know from experience, that this is what Christians do best.
Ender, I know Jesus and bible are true. I did not believe the bible for most of my life, but now that God has shown Himself to me, I will never deny Him. I pity you and others like you, because you have never really known God. I pray you will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ before it is too late.
??
Okay, I'm calling a Poe.
His grace is not shown at the expense of righteousness, nor do His mercies ignore the requirements of holiness.
Hey Dan
I knew you in Jerusalem. My wife and I went to your bible studies in your apt. Just curious - what issues did you finally look into that made you leave the faith?
Hi Danny,
I think it is best to discuss that off the blog because it is not "on topic." If you would like to do that, please feel free to email me. My email can be found on the left-hand bar near the top of the blog.
In any case, thank you for contacting me.
Dan
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